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Class action lawsuit?

Discussion forum for the 'VT' and 'VT+' series

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Class action lawsuit?

Postby murphman » 02 Feb 2012, 19:35

If you bought a car that you had to take the engine apart and clean the internals, perhaps within days of buying it, just to make it do its intended function, wouldn't you feel ripped off?

Well, that's the situation that owners of VOX amps are in. Many, who are slightly past the lousy 1 year warranty period, have no recourse other than paying for the repair or throwing the thing in the garbage. That's not satisfactory and I believe that VOX/KORG know they are selling a shoddy product and refuse to acknowledge it or even respond to queries (at least publicly on this or their own forums) about the cheap parts that they put into their amps or even tell us what DIY remedies might make them functional. Of course, if you have loose fret cloth they're all over it but ask about doing what Voxman or Cosmicrepairdude suggest about cleaning all the cheap inputs and...total silence. http://www.voxamps.com/forum/topic.php?id=5224

How many people buy these amps and have issues and don't have a clue as to what's the problem because they don't access the Internet forums by choice or circumstances.

It's been shown by retrorob, with his great mod kits, that even a small investment in upgrading the inputs/switches eliminates most of these problems and yet VOX continues to build these amps with cheap, faulty parts.

Something needs to be done to get VOX's attention and respond to customers complaints. Perhaps a lawsuit, or enough complaints to the BBB, and the consumer protection agency, would help.
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Re: Class action lawsuit?

Postby Voxman » 03 Feb 2012, 01:04

Whilst I sympathise with anyone who's experienced problems with any product, I think there has to be a sense of perspective.

1. Vox has sold thousands of products worldwide, and the vast majority of customers are very happy with their purchases

2. Vox products come with a 12 month warranty and within that period Vox honours the warranty and deals with problems through its Vox authorised repairers. Customers know that they are only offered 1 yrs warranty at the time of purchase. There are some manufacturers that offer longer warranties. For example, in the USA, Fender offers a 5-year warranty on its US made equipment and 1/2 years on equipment made in China (eg the Mustang amps). In the UK, Fender customers receive 2yrs warranty. The different global approaches are because Fender recognises that consumer law and protection is different in each country.

3. Because consumer law is different in each country, customers may be unaware that they have stronger consumer rights than they might realise. For example, in the UK, under the Sale of Goods and Services Act, a product must be of satisfactory quality and be fit for purpose and the seller has a responsibility for up to 6 years. See here: faulty-gear-consumer-rights-uk-only-t3067.html

4. Vox, like all mass market manufacturers, have a very difficult balancing act to perform. On the one hand, customers (typically) in this market sector want ever cheaper products with more & more features and this 'cycle' is fuelled by consumers. Vox has to make difficult decisions on every feature & every component to try and offer amps that satisfy the majority of customers at a price that customers will pay, and be able to make a profit. That is nowhere near as easy as you might think. Every manufacturer knows that compromises have to be made and that you can't please all your customers all the time.

5. The Fender Mustang amps are a perfect example of a competitors amp offering tremendous bang for buck, with some excellent features including USB upgradeable firmware & free editing & recording software. The Mustang III is a 100w 1x12" combo with a Celestion speaker, that sells for only £217! But Fender have their own problems - check on the Fender forum and you'll find coming up to 70 pages of complaints relating to the Mustang III,IV & V amps 'fizzing'!

6. Vox has brought out a Valvetronix amp made to higher 'pro' specs to meet the more demanding player - the VTX150 Pro Neodymium. I've been trying out one of these amps for the last month or so and it has performed faultlessly with none of the foibles reported by some on the VT+ series. The problem is its a 1x12" combo that cost £599 (although this has reduced now to £499 with some dealers). At this price, its appealing (generally) to a different market - most potential Vox Valvetronix customers will accept the compromise of any possible foibles of the VT+ range (and as I said, the vast majority of customers are very happy with their amps) because a VT120+ 2x12" combo is only £285 (eg from Sounds Live) - or a VT80+ 1x12" combo is only £245 (eg Nevada Music).

7. Some stores are offering excellent warranties above the manufacturers warranty - DV247 in the UK offers a free 4yr warranty on top of a 30 day no quibble return/exchange policy. So, although you might find cheaper (although they will match any main competitor) you'll struggle to get better peace of mind. The point here is that consumers can buy Vox or Fender or any other mainstream product and get better than the manufacturers basic warranty, if they look around.

8. Having said all this, I agree that Vox should be giving a better warranty on its products and I've been pushing for this over the last 2 years. The last update I had was on 1/11/2011 when I was told: There is no plan to change the Vox warranty policy at the moment , but we are trialing a 3 year warranty for selected Korg products with a view to change this across both Korg and Vox. But there are no time scales to advise.

9. Ultimately, consumers can vote with their feet so to speak - if they don't like a manufacturers warranty or service offering, they can buy something else from another manufacturer. But the truth is that at this end of the market, all current products are giving some customers problems - Vox, Fender, Peavey, Behringer etc - go on the forums and you'll see that all products are now made in China/Vietnam etc, with cheaper components, and each product has their share of issues reported on the forums. The same is true now of Marshall, Orange etc where production has moved. Line 6 started this trend when they moved production of the US made Flextone III to China. The big reduction in customer cost (£675 down to £489 at the time for a Flex III Plus) forced the market to do the same thing in order to compete.

We don't live in a perfect world I'm afraid. There are certain realities and one of those is that we live evermore in a 'disposable' culture where goods are no longer over-engineered to last a lifetime - just look at how VCR/DVD/Blueray/TV's have changed. It's actually cheaper to buy a new player (probably with better spec) than it is to get repaired!

And the problem isn't just modeling amps. All-valve amps have their fair share of complaints too re valves/component quality, noise, fuse-blowing etc.

So, if you've bought any product that you're not happy with and the warranty has expired, first thing to check is your local consumer rights. Go back to the store, and/or write to the manufacturer. In short, kick up a fuss and make a pain of yourself to get the problem resolved. If you can't get anywhere, check out other options - eg in the UK you have the small claims court process which is simple, inexpensive, and less formal than a traditional court but with exactly the same powers and clout. In the UK you've also got the Which? consumer association - they can be very helpful. Most manufacturers won't want to spend time & cost in attending a small claims court or risking poor publicity if it gets in the local/natinal press - so they will often fix or replace the product regardless of warranty simply because its a sensible & more economical business solution.

Unfortunately, regardless of what you like to believe, complaining on forums doesn't help in getting manufacturers and retailers to do the right thing - a big reason is they are TERRIFIED of product recall issues (esp. in USA) if its proved that there's a design fault etc (70 pages re Fender Mustang Fizz proves the point - Fender just aren't interested) - you sometimes have to fight for your rights.

And before you start shouting 'design fault' just because you're frustrated with your amp, you'll need to evidence it if you want a manufacturer to sit up & take notice. Only way to do that is to have a product (preferably several) independently examined, assessed and reported in writing by a properly qualified, reputable expert who's prepared to say so. If you have that evidence, then you can get trading standards involved too!

Rich :wink:
"I started out with nothing ...and I've still got most of it left!" (Seasick Steve)
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Re: Class action lawsuit?

Postby murphman » 03 Feb 2012, 03:50

I presently don't have any problems with the 80+, I found your maintenance tips and applied them to the new amp, mostly in the matter with the headphone switch.

What made me write the post is that every time that I come to this site or the VOX site I see that 9 out of 10 posts are related to dirty switches/plugs and either you or CRD offer the cleaning remedy. I understand that most product forums will have some unhappy customers but when you see the same problem over and over in generations of these amps, something is seriously wrong in their build, QC, or maybe they just don't give a damn as long as we keep buying them.

As to the lack of interest by the VOX moderators to these problems, as I referenced in the link, Max-USA posted 3 times on the loose cloth issue but somehow missed the hundreds of posts about the hissing, sound dropouts, or just dead amps. Fairly selective on his part. Or smart.

I actually love my amp, I think that it's extremely fun to have so many amps, pedals and effects to play around with and I'm very happy that I bought it. Will I feel the same a year from now if it fails despite following the cleaning regimen? Probably not.

I agree that we do indeed live in a disposable society but I would like to think that we should demand that companies deliver a product that lasts a bit longer than its warranty and for good measure; perform correctly for many years further on.
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Re: Class action lawsuit?

Postby Voxman » 03 Feb 2012, 10:32

murphman wrote:As to the lack of interest by the VOX moderators to these problems, as I referenced in the link, Max-USA posted 3 times on the loose cloth issue but somehow missed the hundreds of posts about the hissing, sound dropouts, or just dead amps. Fairly selective on his part. Or smart.

'Smart' - same on the Fender forum; I think this is very much driven by US led protocols for the reasons I explained.

I agree that we do indeed live in a disposable society but I would like to think that we should demand that companies deliver a product that lasts a bit longer than its warranty and for good measure; perform correctly for many years further on.

Agreed - and you'll see from below that sadly Vox is poor in this area. That's why customers should vote with their feet - either to buy from dealers offering their own warranties, or look at other manufacturers offering better warranties. The latter will impact on market share & is just about the only message manufacturers will ultimately react to.



Here's a post I put on the Fender forum re warranties:


Stores don't always know warranty stuff - e.g. many stores that sell Laney amps don't know that you can get the standard warranty extended from 12 mths to 5 yrs in the UK, by registering online via 'Headstock Distribution', and much depends on who you speak to.

It's also worth noting that some stores are providing free warranties over and above the manufacturers warranty. For example, in the UK, if you buy gear from DV247 you get a free 4 year warranty on most everything!

I'm really pleased to see a growing trend of manufacturers backing up their products with better warranties than the standard '12 months'. It's not before time - buyers are showing confidence in a manufacturer by spending their hard earned cash on gear and, especially in these difficult economic times, its right that manufacturers should reciprocate that confidence and back their gear.

If a manufacturer doesn't have the confidence to offer more than 12 months on their gear, what does that say about their belief in their product's quality? And why should they then expect consumers to have confidence in buying it?

Customers are now taking greater notice on warranties than ever before, so here's some additional info I've pieced together on the encouraging approach of some other manufacturers, which I hope is of interest:

LANEY
Offer a free extension from 12 months to 5 yrs in the UK if you register the amp on line at Headstock Distribution:
http://www.headstockdistribution.com/lwr/tnc.php

PEAVEY
Provides a 2 year warranty on its guitars and amps in the US and Canada, and UK as standard, but extended by a further 3yrs to give 5ys total warranty if you register the product with the warranty card through the store, within 90 days. Other gear has different periods:
http://www.peavey.com/support/warranty/warrantytext.cfm
http://www.stagebeat.co.uk/index.php?page_id=6001

GIBSON/EPIPHONE
'Fair usage' policy on its lifetime warranty (excluding modifications & normal wear and tear) for all guitars/amps. (Bit vague this one)

MESA BOOGIE
Similar to Fender, 5 yrs US, 2 yrs UK

HUGHES & KETTNER
3 yrs (not sure about regional variations)

MARSHALL
12 mths standard, free extra 2 yrs if you register on line
http://marshallamps.com/support/support_faq.asp

ORANGE
1 yr standard extended free to 2 yrs if you register on line
http://www.orangeamps.com/faq-warranty- ... -products/
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